TRANSCRIPTION
David Smith (00:00):
Welcome to the Expert Witness Podcast. I’m your host, David Smith. I’m excited to be here today with John Zeirke. John is a mechanical engineer. He’s a licensed professional engineer in multiple states. He is an ACT-R-certified accident reconstructionist, a certified vehicle fire investigator, and a certified drone pilot. After a decade and a half in the industry, John has recently started his own company doing expert witness work. So, John, we’re excited to have you on the podcast today.
John Zeirke (00:33):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
David Smith (00:35):
So, one of the things I always like to ask is expert witness work seems to be a little-known career choice. You know, you don’t hear kids talking about how they wanna be an expert witness when they grow up when they’re in school. So I’m always curious how you were introduced to this type of work and how did you get into it?
John Zeirke (00:56):
It was built over time. I think the first time I can remember actually hearing about being an expert witness in terms of especially an engineer, was when I had a professor in college for Maje machine design, and he had some more stories about testifying, and different things. And I was like, that’s kind of an interesting side hustle to have but when you’re 22, you don’t know anything. So, I just kind of put that off in the back of my head and, you know, I took a pretty typical path outta school, got the bachelor’s, worked as a design engineer, and I guess just over time, you know, process of elimination of things I knew I didn’t wanna do later in my career. And then I just slowly, I guess the whole idea of forensics and reconstruction and everything, I found that to be pretty interesting.
John Zeirke (01:57):
And I went and got my PE without really having a plan, but I figured, I don’t know, maybe this would have some benefit in the future and it did. I don’t remember a specific point and certainly it’s not brought up, like you said, in college as a career path, and it’s hard to do that when you’re inexperienced anyway. You kind of probably need to get some much further education research or, you know, industry work to really get to where you could call yourself an expert, quite honestly.
David Smith (02:35):
Yeah, that’s, that’s definitely true. You do need to get the background experience, but once you have that and you get into the expert witness work, I have at least found it to be both challenging and rewarding work, so, Zeirke. All right. So I understand you spent a significant amount of time actually doing work in industry. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience and, and how you rely on that for your expert witness work?
John Zeirke (03:07):
Yeah. So started out, and people, I, I don’t mean to make it like a full straight CV, but I started out school working at Caterpillar on the lower powertrain group for the large mining truck, like the ultra-class 7 97, you know, 400-ton payload. And you know, in those rear axles, our group kind of did the whole rear axle. And I had design responsibility for the planetary final drives at the end of the wheel stations there. So obviously, torque is super important in those trucks, so you need extra reduction before that. And you know, worked there for eight or nine years. My biggest project there, kind of a large-scope development project, was the first electric drive mining truck that CAT had done. So instead of having, you know, transmission differential and then these mechanical final drives, they went to electric AC motors in the wheel stations.
John Zeirke (04:11):
So you needed much different or much higher ratios. And so that was kind of a complete tear up new design. And, you know, the product cycle on that type of equipment, you don’t just turn ’em around immediately. It takes a little, you know, a little while to even procure parts. But I was able to work through that program, and that gave me a lot of experience in you know, clean sheet design. Caterpillar makes like every, like, everything gears, you know, they’re like a gear company in and of itself. So that was a lot of your typical design work and everything. But then also having to work through the development, you know, chase some problems, you know, also have design responsibility for the existing designs and, and everything. So and that was very, very much mechanical, you know, nuts, bolts, screws, gears, all that.
John Zeirke (05:07):
But, you know, it was cool, and it’s cool stuff to work on. Made that transition. Then what brought me up to the Twin Cities up here was working at Polaris, and I got in there at a time I was brought into the Slingshot team, the three-wheel Roadster vehicle you might see out there. And it was basically it had been a really small team doing the initial design and development, and at some point, they said, okay, we’re gonna definitely go with this thing. You know, there were a lot of questions about regulations for something like that, unique Zeirke. So I think there was some, some pause, but eventually, they said, okay, we’re doing this, so we need to like to ramp up a real team. And so that was my in at Polaris. So super different product, fast-paced you know, it was like hitting everything to get this thing ready for production.
John Zeirke (06:05):
And so I think I started like six months before we launched it to the public, and then another, it was probably another close to six months before we were shipping units, but, you know, getting in, it was like all hands on deck. So it’s like, here’s an issue, the steering, here’s an issue, brakes or suspension or drive line and or even paint, plastic, something like that. So you gotta sort through as much as that as you can. And then the dust settles, and then the team gets formed, and then you, you usually, you know, as a design engineer, they kind of whack the vehicle up into systems or areas, and then yeah, everyone has their responsibility. And my primary responsibility was the drive line, which in that vehicle consists of a manual transmission, you know, drive shaft or right angle gear gearbox, like spiral bevel, and then a belt drive like a motorcycle.
John Zeirke (06:56):
So you know, the front’s like a car, and the back’s like a motorcycle. And I could go on and on about all the lessons learned there. I still have PTSD and some of the MDH issues, but anyways, I went through that. There was a big program that I worked on, it was basically the second-gen version of the Slingshot, which came out, I think 2020 model year. It was after I was gone. But we had done most of the development and the big scope was players having their own engine. We had used a GM engine to start, and so that new engine allowed a big enough scope program where we went through a lot of the systems, including the drive line. So I went from having to like, kind of massage and improve a design that existed to now, okay, now we can take that and, and do a bigger scope project, which is cool.
John Zeirke (07:56):
But then also in, in addition to that, I had a role there, and this is probably where I started really transitioning more into thinking about the forensic side, is it was like a product safety, product quality type role where I was taking in all the different streams of information from like warranty or, you know, customer complaints, even like forum and social media type posts, anything that was raising any potential flag about the slingshot. We bring all those in kinda like a funnel. And you, you do like preliminary checks and you, or you you look for trends and different things like that. And then along the way, you know, when, when there are things that are not explained by simple things like, oh, this was an idiot who crashed, you know, and blamed the vehicle. Sometimes that happens, but you know, you, you’re looking for issues and you know, anyone can go to NITSA and see just about every car has recalls.
John Zeirke (09:01):
And the slingshot early on, especially, did have some, so we worked to, you’re gathering information. I was kind of the point person, and then, you know, if it’s a steering issue, you bring in the steering expert as well. But basically, you know, there was a game plan we came up with on how to investigate issues like that. You know, when you’re at the company, you know, that design, you know, testing history, you have, you can test and, and validate certain issues or try to replicate ’em. And then there’s a series of levels, I’m assuming most companies have this, you know, series of escalation levels Zeirke. To an issue with the top, obviously being a safety recall, if you have to do that. And that top line, that’s when you go to the boardroom in the, in the headquarters, and you pretty much know you’re gonna recall something then.
John Zeirke (09:54):
But you know, along the way, you know, there’s other avenues. There’s technical service bulletins and stuff like that, or, you know, pretty minor things can be rolled into the next running change or, or something like that. So you always are evaluating, you know, what is the, the nature of the issue and, and getting to the root cause is like super intense to do that as soon as possible. Because after that, you still have to do, that’s when the work begins, you know, how are we gonna fix it? When can we fix it? Sometimes you have your like interim corrective fix, which is like maybe just to throw numbers out, maybe like 80% solution that we can do right away. And the 99% of solutions are gonna take longer. Maybe you do it in steps or maybe, you know, whatever. And the exciting part of that, is you never want to go through those things.
John Zeirke (10:48):
Of course, you would love everything to be easy, but the exciting part is like, it’s like all hands on deck and all any sort of barriers or red tape gets put aside and you, you start to go, no, we need, we need to be in the test lab for this, or we need, you know, priority on, on this or that. And, you know, you’re trying to get to the bottom line and, and, and just be able to give guidance to management and, you know, to their credit, you know, when it, when we needed to do something they, they always did it. You know, they always fought, but they just wanna, they always wanna know that we’ve investigated it. So yeah, long story short, I understood the recall process and the investigation process and I could see how that kind of dovetailed with the forensic consulting side and the reconstruction and, you know, we were having to look at accidents that happened or fires are a big thing.
John Zeirke (11:53):
So you wanna, you start to pick up that type of experience. And I don’t know exactly, again, it kind of built over time, but at some point you start to start to see this path. And I’d gotten my PE back when I was a caterpillar for no real reason. But that’s a barrier to entry into expert witness work. And not a lot of mechanicals have that unless they’re doing, I think maybe HVAC people usually have it or something, but yeah. So yeah, I mean, that’s kind of the long story short, you know, I did some design work. I’ve been through that process of, you know, design, test break, redesign, you know, fix stuff, and there’s certainly forensic work going on within that Zeirke. And it’s under a time crunch. ’cause Even if it’s pre-production, you’re, you might be halting development of, of some sort if, you know, whatever, whatever happens.
John Zeirke (12:52):
But stuff does happen. I mean, it’s never smooth, right? , you know, if, and so it’s good to have been through that stuff. It’s stressful at times, and you don’t want to be the one on the hot seat, but everyone takes their turn, it seems like, and that’s the deal. And then but yeah, now I’m at the point where you get into the forensic side, you know, you’re not creating things as much as you’re, you know, you’re analyzing. But the cool part and when I transitioned, I, I, I worked at Rimkus, a large consulting company, so it was a career change, so it’s kind of the way to go for me. I don’t think I could have just moved into doing this on my own immediately. I wouldn’t have known where to start really. Zeirke. But, yeah, like the variety’s key, I think. And you’re more well-rounded, and really you’re kind of more valuable, the more experienced, the more gray hair you get too. So there’s some career progression, like reasons to get into this too, beyond it just being rewarding and enjoyable. It’s, it’s kind of one of those things where, again, like you could probably do it as long once you get established. You could probably do it as long as you want, and at least that’s what we’re hoping. Right.
David Smith (14:19):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like you got a lot of really good experience and a good background to really add technical know-how and what’s actually happening in these companies oftentimes expert witnesses or academics or college professors. Do you think there are benefits to approaching expert work from coming from industry as opposed to coming from academia?
John Zeirke (14:51):
Obviously, my path is industry. Maybe I’m biased, but it’s worked for me. But obviously, there’s a lot of different types of expert witnesses. Obviously, you’ve interviewed a lot of ’em, Zeirke. On this podcast, but, so it kind of depends on the area you’re in. Obviously, I just have a bachelor’s degree. I’m just a lump of coal here. But you know, people with PhDs, they get much more into the details of complex topics. And then I think research certainly can provide a lot of insight to different specifics. And there’s other things related to it like maybe the bio side or, you know related to the medical side or something like that where you probably need those grad degrees and maybe a mix of, of industry. But I mean, our job is, it is kind of common sense in, in a way, it is, you have to have practical knowledge.
John Zeirke (15:57):
And I, I, I always think it’s good to have that, you know, industry experience and kind of know, especially I guess in the work I’m doing now when you’re, you’re maybe commenting on whether you think something is a product issue or, or not. To be able to say, yes, I’ve been in that I know how the sausage is made, so to speak that, that works for me again. But I definitely, you know, I, I’m sure, and you know, again, I brought up my professor. He is, you know, PhD, you know, mechanical engineering. I can’t remember how much industry experience he had, but just as a subject matter expert, you know, he was obviously valuable enough to be brought in to do expert witness. So work. So yeah, I guess it kind of depends on what you’re into.
David Smith (16:48):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I’ve, I’ve seen good and bad experts come both from academia and from you know, industry. So there are certain advantages and disadvantages to each, but, you know, both, both can be excellent and both can be subpar, so. Zeirke. All right. So, you know, we mentioned that you recently started your own company and you did some work at Rimkus before. Were there any barriers or obstacles you had to overcome getting into expert witness work? Did the cases come slowly or have you been in high demand from day one?
John Zeirke (17:31):
Well, it’s kind of a mix. You know, we didn’t really have Minneapolis, it was kind of a newer market for Mki and just for the type of work I was doing. Fortunately they had a kind of a long-term view. It was like, you know, this might take a little while to ramp up. I mean, I had work right away but also in time to ramp up, it gave me time to pursue more training in the reconstruction and get some of those certifications in the fire and everything. But I’d say it really took maybe a year and a half or so to ramp up to have a consistent amount of work. And then and then Covid happened, and then it shut off completely for a short time, and then it ramped way up. And I think I got, that’s when I really ramped up to kind of like pretty much the highest hours I was getting which was all good, right?
John Zeirke (18:31):
You, you want to be busy. And I think it helped me to kind of cast a wider net. You don’t wanna be someone who’s too general and gets outta, you definitely don’t wanna get outta your lane, obviously Zeirke. Because you’re not really an expert in something like that. So you have to know when to say no. But also, you know, I was willing to get outta my comfort zone, and I thought it was also a good idea. And again, the advantage of working at a company with all a ton of experts, you could pick up the phone and, you know, it, you certainly could get support, you know, that way Zeirke. And you gotta get experience somehow. So, you gotta get it going, and then you get experience, then you, then you’re kind of into an area that you wouldn’t have been in before.
John Zeirke (19:17):
So you gotta have patience and everything. And now that I’m gonna be on my own here, I’m gonna have to have patience with that as well. But just one day at a time, right? And you gotta take the long-term view. I’m still absolutely, I’m still pretty young for this type of field, you know you go to inspections, there’s a lot more gray hair and, and things like that with other experts. So you know, I’m mid-career, if that. So just gotta keep moving forward and, and stay outta your comfort zone and be willing to, to try things and, and always gotta keep learning, right? Everything’s changing. So, but yeah, it’s, it’s been a progression
David Smith (20:04):
Very good. Yeah. There are definitely some benefits to working in a company with other experts, just being able to, you know, bounce ideas off of other people or, you know, see if they see things from a different angle can be really beneficial to a case. So, with your background and experience, what type of cases do you commonly work on? And, you know, without sharing any confidential information, can you give us an example of a case and the types of situations that call for your expertise?
John Zeirke (20:44):
Yeah, so you know, there’s a, there’s a stream of work that is kind of simpler, you know, insurance type investigations or you know, there’s, there’s that level. Then there’s, you know, big legal cases with a lot of exposure and everything in between. So just like scale wise you know, I’ve been a part of some pretty large cases that way. But I’ll work for insurance adjusters, I’ll work for attorneys directly. And so you know, there’ll be subrogation type situations where there’s multiple parties you know, product liability, things like that. You know, and a lot of times you get those cases where the incident itself is, maybe a crash or a fire. But ultimately the question is, did the vehicle or the machine contribute to that? Was it part of it?
John Zeirke (21:48):
Sometimes there’s known issues with specific vehicles or machines, products, or whatever. So you’re maybe bouncing it off that. But yeah, it’s, it’s pretty much the investigation side of things and you know, I, I guess if I broke it down, it’s kind of crashes and mechanical failures and fires, but it all kind of is part of engineering really. It’s just different, different venues. But, you know, it was, I wanted to have experience and training in just origin and cause for fire and for accident reconstruction and, and kind of know how that plays into it as well. But yeah, I mean, that’s kind of where it is. It’s been mainly on the forensic side. Zeirke. You know, I’m open to doing more, you know, based on my design experience, doing more, maybe design consulting, ideating on how to fix any sort of issues we find or be a part of that root cause investigation as well. Just to kind of be on the, on the side of it, like improving things, making things as kind of a, you know, there’s a, there was a that was a rewarding thing in and of itself as well, to know that you contributed to making something that’s out there, you know, on the roads.
David Smith (23:07):
Yeah, definitely. It was one of them, so my grandpa did a lot of work. He worked with a bunch of companies that did mobile equipment, and, you know, after when I was in college, I went on a road trip with him from California up to Utah. And just every time we drive by a construction site, he is like, I designed that, or I worked on that. He was like, you know why that’s that way. I, it was, it was fun to learn from him and also see all of it, the products that he’d worked on, out on the road. Zeirke. Yeah, that’s still one of the highlights of my life. I remember that particular road trip and look back on that with fondness. Zeirke. Absolutely. So, in your expert work, are most of your cases local? Do you work nationwide?
David Smith (00:24:00):
Do you have a preference?
John Zeirke (00:24:03):
I mean, when I was with Rimkus, you know, we have experts all over, so you kind of get your geographical region, but mine was pretty big just based on me, kind of on an island. So I, you know, drive quite a bit for, you know, I’d be out to the Dakotas or Iowa, or even Nebraska, a little bit Wisconsin. So I, you know, I’ve got licenses and kind of that, those six states, Illinois. And so that’s just kind of generally where I’ve, where I’ve gone. I would anticipate based on, you know, experience speaking with other independent people, you might be, you know, flown out. I did a few trips at Rimkus where it was like a Caterpillar-specific thing or a player specific thing where Zeirke. You know, they, they kind of, yeah, they saw a need that there is worth me traveling a further distance. But yeah, I mean, I think that might change over time. So far, it’s been all within driving distance, which is, it’s good to have your tools and have some flexibility, you know, not be in airports all the time, but you gotta be willing to travel. That’s part of this gig.
David Smith (00:25:24):
Yeah, I agree. You know for us, you know, there’s not a lot of people that have, not a lot of independent people that have experience with like garbage trucks or aerial lifts or, you know, we’ve got one guy that does ski lifts and, you know, to find somebody outside of industry that, that can go in and look at that, you know, we end up going all over the country because of that, so Zeirke. And it’s fun too. It’s fun to go see things in different places and, you know, see the different things that are happening. So let’s talk generally about expert witness work. What do you enjoy about it? Why did you decide to go out on your own and, and make this your career?
John Zeirke (00:26:12):
Well, I think to start, it’s you know, it’s the practical side of it. You know, getting, you know, a lot of reps and like, you know, learning about different things and different specific equipment, you know, so like if you work on vehicles and equipment, there are so many different types out there. Zeirke. And, you know, I, I always believe that that experience translates machine to machine, but you’re starting with, okay, how does this one work? And, and getting into that and, you know, kind of building your expertise that way, which is just fun and rewarding. And also you can, you know, these are kind of mini projects, and sometimes they drag on for a while or go away and come back or whatever, if they’re legal. But there are many projects for the start, end, and finish, and there’s a work product.
John Zeirke (00:27:06):
You know, our report and or our testimony is like our work product. So it’s, it’s kind of nice. You get that cycle and you get, you know, reps that way. But then also just the nature of it. And the challenge for me initially was and I, you know, I guess I always struggled starting out when you were presenting up the chain, you know, when I was in the industry, you know, the higher levels you got, the more you needed to like, get down to the basics of like, what is the, what is your point, I think somebody told me once, like, we asked you what time it was, and you told us how to make a watch. So it’s actually a challenge. And it’s something about this, this career, you need to be able to explain, especially if you’re gonna get all the way to like, where you’re in front of a jury, Zeirke.
John Zeirke (00:27:57):
Like, you’re gonna have all this stuff floating around your head, and we know all the details and everything, but ultimately, like, what’s the question that you’re trying to, you know, you’re trying to answer? And how do you explain that in a way that everyone can understand? ’cause That’s how you really be an effective expert. You could be really intelligent or, or know all the, all the details, which you have to be confident to call yourself an expert. Obviously you need experience in education, but it’s a communication thing, right? And Zeirke. You get to meet a lot of different people too. Like in some cases, in some ways it’s kind of an isolated job. ’cause You, you’re not in a cubicle with a bunch of people around you all the time that you get to know really well, but you’re also, you’ll be meeting people, you know, different clients and, and different, you know, people that you meet out in, in the field.
John Zeirke (00:28:51):
And that’s also interesting as well. I’m not a complete introvert like some engineers, so I don’t, I don’t mind speaking with people, and yeah. So I mean, it’s a lot of things. I mean, I think ultimately, you know, you’re, you’re contributing to something that you’re contributing and people understand, you know a certain issue or what happened. And it’s a puzzle too, right? Like, as you know, from doing this, you come into something and you have no information, so you’re just trying to gather information, then you’re trying to put the pieces together. And it can be frustrating at times, but it’s obviously rewarding when you, when you really get to the bottom of it. And so yeah, I really, really enjoy it. I’ve only been doing it; I guess, seven years or so at this point. But I promote it to other mechanical engineers who maybe don’t have the idea that this exists. And you know, it’s been a, it’s been a great thing for me to get into.
David Smith (00:30:01):
Yeah, I agree. That’s one of the reasons that I do this podcast is to just bring awareness to the expert industry for other engineers and technical people. Because, as you’ve mentioned, there’s a lot of gray haired people that do this type of work. And we’ve noticed that a lot of those people are starting to retire, and there’s a void that is growing with people that understand the engineering and technical part of the work, but also understand the legal and communication part of the work. And so I think it is important to advocate and bring people in and educate people on what expert witness work is, why it’s important and how to do it. So Zeirke. So I’m with you on that, and thank you for doing this with me today. All right. So, have you ever been reviewing information for a case and found that you are definitely on the wrong side? And if you have, what did you do?
John Zeirke (00:31:09):
Yeah, I mean, that happens, you know, enough times that you get, you get used to it. You know, I think ultimately our job is to be right or to get to the right answer Zeirke. We really are supposed to be independent. And I rarely have ever had a time or any client has seemed to have any pushback or be extremely disappointed by hearing bad news. You know, unfavorable news, I guess, to them. Usually, the really good clients get it, and actually, they wanna know that as early as possible Zeirke. And you know, especially like attorneys, they got whatever angle they might work based on what you’re telling them. And for us, it’s our reputation, right? So I’m not gonna jeopardize my reputation long term just to help one case, you know, you gotta, again, you gotta think long term on this, but I did have I had like at least one plaintiff case, and one was an insurer, an independent adjuster too, which is kind of like along the same path where they were clearly trying to get a specific result from me.
John Zeirke (00:32:28):
And you just kind of have to be, and you know, those were uncomfortable. They, two of those I’m thinking of, happened pretty early on in my time in this and made you feel kind of crappy, like, you know, like you were failing your, your client. But ultimately, I can only say what I can say. And you know, a lot, most people, including plaintiffs and everything in which I think, you know, people probably think of this type of scenario more for the plaintiff side, but, you know, most everybody on both sides have been good to work with. And you know, you build those relationships and credibility with like, repeat clients. ’cause Then when you, if you work with somebody and you’ve told them the bad news before, then when you tell ’em like, Ooh, this one’s pretty favorable to us, they’re really gonna believe it and the last thing they want is to get down the road and then be surprised in a negative way that’s not gonna be good for your, your career. So yeah, I mean it’s, I think early on, the first time you have those situations, it’s kind of uncomfortable. But I guess too, I mean, there are enough clients out there that if somebody’s like that all the time, you just, you just don’t need to work with them, I guess. Pick the people that are, are reasonable.
David Smith (00:33:54):
Yeah. I agree. You know, one of the things that we talk about in our office is that it’s not the expert’s job to win the case. You know, the expert’s job is to give the attorney the information they need to make their decisions, right? Do they pursue the case? Do they settle? Do they, you know and the technical aspect oftentimes is very important, but other times it’s also just a small piece. So even if, you know, you’re giving them bad news on a technical side, you know, it doesn’t always mean their case is over or not.
John Zeirke (00:34:30):
Yeah, there’s, I mean, we’re also, like, I try to remind myself we’re like a piece of the puzzle sometimes too, and like there are other factors that are out of our scope that are, that might have, you know, that might be of consequence to the legal side of things. Yeah. And I’m not an attorney, and I don’t wanna know in general terms like what they’re thinking to make sure that you, you’re, you think that you’re supporting that correctly. But also, I don’t wanna care too much about the specifics of it. So it’s kind of a balance where you go, well, I’m telling you what is, what is accurate, and I’m staying within my lane, and if I’m deposed, I’m not gonna start speculating about other stuff. And then, you know, they’re gonna handle it. Maybe they’ll get a different expert in some other area or whatever. But yeah, staying in your lane, I think, is key. And just know too that there’s, they’ll take, even if you’ve got unfavorable news it might make them go a different direction or, or have a different strategy. Like the whole legal side is its own, you know, they’re really good at their job and, you know, we just have to try to focus on our job, I guess.
David Smith (00:35:46):
Yeah, absolutely. And you can only do what the science tells you, so Zeirke. That’s, I guess, one of the nice parts about being an expert.
John Zeirke (00:35:58):
Yeah. It is kind of, it is kind of nice that way that you can just go like, Hey man, I don’t know. Like, you know, it’s, it is what it is. And good luck to you, you know?
David Smith (00:36:09):
Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, if you were going to give someone who had just been retained in their first case one piece of advice, what would it be?
John Zeirke (00:36:22):
Communication is kind of everything. And it’s tough when you get a good workload of stuff and you have a lot of balls in the air. Try to really understand what your scope is and what they’re asking. You know, budget, you know, even budget estimates, you know, don’t wanna surprise them with that either. Zeirke. But with legal especially, I’ve learned to ask upfront like, what are the deadlines of this? You know, I’ve had different things I’ve had where they’re retaining me, and they need something in a matter of a couple of weeks, and you’re like, I don’t know, like, you know, in other cases, you got a little more time. And it’s just good to know that upfront. And also just the nature of the communication in general, keeping them up to date. But also, you know, sometimes you do like an inspection, and you have your kind of initial thoughts and everything, and you wanna give an update that we did the inspection, this is kind what we saw, but you don’t wanna jump to conclusions.
John Zeirke (00:37:32):
‘Cause I’ve had times where I was at an inspection, and I’m like, oh, I think this is going this way. Then you can get back to the office and digest it. And sometimes, you have to do a little more research or new information comes in. So even just before you get to, like, testimony in a written report, you don’t wanna be flip-flopping back and forth. So sometimes you have to know to just go like, okay, like, this is what we did. This is kind of where we’re at. I gotta do this stuff. And, you know, before I get you a final answer. And, but yeah, I mean, it’s communication’s like important in every job. But I think we’ve all seen experts, maybe that, that have the book smarts and the experience side, but if you’re not good at communicating it can be trouble and, you know, you gotta be helpful to them, you know, like you’re, again, you’re a piece of the puzzle.
John Zeirke (00:38:26):
You don’t want them waiting on you. You don’t want them in the dark about what’s going on, you know? So I, that’s probably it. I mean, because it’s, that’s where I would probably focus on. And then also asking questions too. I mean, you’re, you’re consulting them but also sometimes too, you know, asking more questions can, can raise a flag about maybe you need to kind of, maybe we need to bring in somebody else here. Maybe this is gonna get outta my lane. Or you know, we, if we’ve got experience being experts on a lot of these cases, you can kind of see ahead where maybe you might have pitfalls or something and be able to raise flags earlier on. So, you know, ask questions, communicate, always try to pick up the phone, respond to emails as well as quickly as possible. You know, being responsive and everything. It’s, you know, like I said, it is just, it’s just part of the deal that’s part of being a good expert.
David Smith (00:39:37):
Yeah, we could probably do a whole podcast on communication between attorneys and experts and when and how much and in what ways and Zeirke. You know, and everybody tends to like something different as well, so Zeirke. It’s definitely good to get that information upfront and make a plan for how to communicate for a case. I like that. So what do you find makes a good expert or helps an expert to be persuasive?
John Zeirke (00:40:10):
Well, yeah, I mean, and that’s kind of the back to the communication side too. But first, to do the work and be able to support your opinions. You know, ’cause there’s different, you know, we, we don’t always get to peel the onion back all the way. You know, there’s your confidence the more work you do, your confidence level can go up. But you know, it’s kind of a balance of scope, and it kind of depends on what the client’s willing to do. But let’s say you get to a point where you’ve been able to, you know, basically have pretty solid opinions. That’s kind of the first step. And then knowing, you know, what went into those, and the work you did. You’ve got that, you know, in your back pocket. And then in terms of being persuasive, you know, let that do the talking.
John Zeirke (00:41:10):
And just again, be able to communicate kind of plainly what it is. But yeah, you don’t, I don’t know, it’s kind of hard. It’s kind of hard in terms of, I, you know like I said, you’re, you’re just really trying to get to the right answer, have your opinions, don’t back off of ’em if you’re being challenged, you know, know what they are and, and you know how you got to them and have trust in that. Have confidence in yourself, and the work you’ve done, but also confidence in your experience and everything. That’s good. That’s probably where the persuasive side comes from, is, is, you know, a healthy amount of confidence, but not overconfidence.
David Smith (00:41:57):
I like that. That’s a good way to put that. All right, so we find that most experts would like to be involved in more cases. What have you found to be the most effective marketing techniques or the best way to get new cases?
John Zeirke (00:42:17):
Hopefully podcasts,
John Zeirke (00:42:19):
No
John Zeirke (00:42:21):
I, you know, it’s like word of mouth. Like that’s when you and that’s kind of as I got more established, I that was like something I kept into my mind as like, this would be a good milestone is when attorneys are calling me directly and not just kind of reaching out generally to the company and looking for experts. You know, you get those ones that call you, they’re like, I got another one for you. And you start to build that relationship. And so that’s it’s word of mouth. And the, and the people that are really busy, I don’t think have to do a tremendous amount of marketing. It’s always good to get out there and, and kind of be exposed to the different groups like you know, a defense attorney association or this or that, or claims people just to make sure they know you exist and everything.
John Zeirke (00:43:12):
But the people who have been doing this for a while and get established, they seem to have more work than they can have anyway. And no need to put, you know, a ton of marketing into it. But, I’m still open to trying to just network, talk to people. I think the key is just that the people know you exist, and you’re in this area, and the other, the other experts know you exist too, I think that is key. Because they all know each other. They’re all, you know, geographically especially they know, and they know the good ones and the bad ones and the ones to watch out for. And other experts, I think, are valuable. You, I mean, you wanna earn, you wanna have respect amongst them just ’cause we just do. But also, you know, there are cases they might be conflicted out, but they can help their client by referring, you know, to somebody that they, you know, trust as well that will do a good job.
John Zeirke (00:44:09):
‘Cause I always found when you’re at, when you’re in these cases and like, you know, the other experts and everyone’s on a different side, like, it’s actually not usually that adversarial. Like everyone’s kind of there to do the same thing and, you know, I’m on this side this time and whatever. So yeah, I mean, I think it’s doing good work. And so you get repeat business and, and word of mouth, but I put it not just on our direct clients, but the other experts that you work with. I think it’s good to have that positive impression out there. And again, I think it’s a snowball, once it gets going it can be good that way.
David Smith (00:44:50):
Yeah.
John Zeirke (00:44:51):
I don’t think you’ll see any John Zeirke billboards on the side of the road. ,
David Smith (00:44:55):
. I’ll keep my eye out for those. But you’re right. You know, this, this industry, I think in every industry, but this industry may be more than others, is really based on relationships and reputation. And you know, attorneys are always asking their colleagues, you know, who’s a good expert in this field? That’s usually the first place they go when they’re looking for someone. So, having good relationships and doing good work is a great way to bring in more work. So,
John Zeirke (00:45:30):
Because your work that’s out there, like, you know, your reports get passed around, like every time you do a report or testify, you gotta assume people are gonna see that. And so they’re gonna know too, and they’ll know if you’ve done a good job or a bad job. But Zeirke. You know, it’s our profession. Like, you’re just, again, reputation’s everything you want to be professional and do good work. And, you know, from that standpoint it’ll pay off, you know, in the long term.
David Smith (00:46:03):
Yeah, definitely. All right. So if you could go, you won’t have to go back very far, but if you could go back and add expert witness work as a service, would you provide something you would do again?
John Zeirke (00:46:18):
Absolutely. I mean yeah, again, going out on my own is a new, very new, very, very new thing. So call me in a year at least on that. But I, you know, I’m bullish on that for sure. But yeah, it’s kind of, you know, it’s the way it’s progressed as we talked about it. And I just, yeah, I can’t imagine going back at this point just because I see so much potential in this area. And you know, I still have a lot to learn clearly. And if I listen to this podcast a year from now or whatever, I’ll probably go, man, I didn’t know anything. You know, you should always kind of keep moving forward. And so, and things are gonna change, too. So it’s exciting to know too that you’re gonna learn new things, and yeah, absolutely. It’s something I see a lot of good future with.
David Smith (00:47:14):
Awesome. So how can, how can attorneys find you if they need someone with your expertise, John?
John Zeirke (00:47:22):
Well, my email is john@jzengineer.com. I’m on LinkedIn. You know, I’m pretty easy to access on there, to get a hold of, and I, I keep an eye on that. I do have a website, JZEngineer.com. And there’s a submittal portal on there, you know, for, for putting in work. But yeah, I, you know, just search for me. I’m out; I’m out there. My last name’s spelled ZEI, not ZIE. That’s a common mistake. So, other than that, yeah, just LinkedIn’s usually a good place nowadays for people to find stuff. Otherwise, yeah, email me, and we’ll get you set up.
David Smith (00:48:10):
Sounds great. Well, John, thank you for your thoughts and your advice today. Thank you for being here. We wish you the best of luck with your new venture, and we’re happy to help any way we can.
John Zeirke (00:48:21):
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Good to meet you.
David Smith (00:48:25):
All right.